this is to follow up my last post, and responses (keep in mind this is difficult to cut down to something to write in a blog)
Let me ask you this: Can you in and of yourself mustar up enough faith to save youself?--No you cannot!
The point here in James 2 is that "Faith" is given by God, (Rom 1:17a--"from faith to faith")--It is Christ's faith given to us which saves us. Therefore since faith is from Christ it is Christ who WILL produce fruit (seen by deeds) in our lives. One thing I told the quizzers is that this does NOT mean we will all steadily grow into mature saints instantly. (Don, so I am NOT condemning or questioning your friends salvation) But the fact is, if Christ IS in you, there WILL be change...there must be. (at some level, at some rate---Don you have said you've seen fruit in your friend...though not 'deeds' necessarally....like i said not all will grow and mature at the same rate..that doesn't mean grace is yanked away from them)
This is not saying Christians won't struggle and/or even fail. this is NOT saying faith is NOT enough! It is saying that Faith (a faith given by Christ) WILL produce fruit, at some level. Of course we are saved by FAITH...by GRACE....Works do not save us...But Grace and Faith WILL produce those works, or else it's not faith from Christ. So the emphasis is the FAITH, and it's the FAITH that saves...but that faith will produce Fruit...
I agree with you, this is complex and at times it seems the Bible contradicts itself, but that is because God is Bigger, and more Complex than our simple logic. Just as the Bible says that God chooses those whom He saves, yet it also says whoever believes will be saved. Is one right and the other wrong? NO!! The are both true...HOW you ask....I can't explain....But I also can't explain a God as big and Mighty as my God. Don't excuse something too quickly just because it doesn't stand up to human logic...I stand by what I wrote...Read it again, you might find I'm saying about the same as you, just in different terms.
Lastly...a thought I just had about all this......Answer this question: WHY ARE WE SAVED? my answer would be to Glorify God. Isn't that what it is all about...that God may be Glorified through us?....If this is so, and it's Christ in us who saves us (the hope of glory Col 1:27) than will he not work in and through us so that He will be evident to others through us? hence why I said James (chapter 2 included) is a book about the fruit of grace.----it's all about God's grace...It's all about His glory...these deeds are produced in us..not to prove to God we are saved...but so that God may be glorified through us. makes sense to me....maybe not to you though...then I agree to disagree....Blessings, and to God be the Glory
posted by Kellen @ 7:33 PM
5 Comments:
Well put Kellen.
Red flags go up at the mere mention of deeds as prerequisite. What you are saying is that the deeds will be a result of this Faith in God. I agree with you. Fruits will become evident. What I want to know is this: is evidence of the fruit of the spirit considered a deed? Love, joy peace patience kindness etc would ultimately express itself through deed, but these fruits are not deeds of themselves.
I agree that the Bible is the truthful word of God, so therefor, I have to accept what it says, even if I cant wrap my head around it. Apparent contadictictions do not bother me.
Thanks for the clarification.
dw
you ask a good question Don, "is evidence of the fruit of the spirit considered a deed?" are they deeds in and of themselves? I don't know about that...the question I would ask to perhaps clarify is -WHY ARE DEEDS IMPORTANT TO GOD, IS IT THE DEEDS THEMSELVES GOD CARES ABOUT OR THE REASON BEHIND THE DEED?---I think we can all agree that it's WHY we do that matters to God not as much WHAT we do. What we do will be good if why we do it is because of the fruit Christ is producing in us.
so yeah, I think you are right, they are not 'technically' deeds, but they will change the way we act and live, therefore producing deeds. But as I've said, and as we can all clearly see for ourselves...this will not be manifested the same in all Christians, or at the same rate. Christ's relationship with each of us is unique and different...that's why it's so special, and amazing...and mysterious...
OK Kellen, so while I have supposed to have been reading my OT I cant seem to let this go.
In defense of your position I have recalled a few things.
1 in the parable of the "talents", Jesus refers to the person who did not invest the talents as a "wicked servant". There was no return on the gift/inheritance/trust. If we can draw a parralel, then the person who has been given faith has decided not to use it, but to hoard it and is therefor wicked in Jesus own words.
2 a lake of fire is reserved for the hypocrate. The hypocrate could be the one who has been given the faith but chooses to live contrary to this faith. He becomes a hypocrate, accepting the gift, but not living the gift. That person becomes a hypocrate as in the eyes of the world, he is living contrary to Gods wish and desire.
Clearly, though we are saved by faith,but does this faith come. with obvious responsibilities. If we do not fulfill these responsibilities, then the faith given is not honoured or appreciated, and therfor it is a statement that this person does not want the faith that has been given, or does not care about the gift, or is so self consumed that the gift is meaningless.
I found many other examples but frankly cant remember them now.
I am warming up to your challenge and thank you for challenging me.
With regards to my freind, the gift of the spirit will produce fruit when given the chance or time. Only God truly knows his heart. If his faith does not produce fruit, that will in turn produce "deeds" consistant with the gifts, then he is in danger of being both a hypocrate and a wicked servant.
If his faith is real, he will not want to be either of these things,
and "deeds" will become evident.
They may be subtle at first, but one would expect him to march towards Christ likeness which would include "deeds". These deeds will be a natural result of his love for God, not his attempt to gain entrance to the kingdom, by deeds alone. Deeds without faith wont please God and I guess neither will faith without deeds.
So if I am displeasing God by not "putting my money where my mouth is" then the Jesus in me will cause me to want to please God and therefor, deeds will result as a result of my faith in Gods word.
I'm not really done with this as I still have such a strong feeling towards the salvation by faith alone model. I need to balance these two important issues.
I live my days naturally wanting to please God. Deeds will be evident by default.They are a natural response.If I live my days naturally not wanting to please God, then I am rejecting the gift.
Sorry to flog the horse here, but I'm using your blog space to work through this.
I'd be interested in Jakes opinion.
Jake if you are reading this, perhaps you could weigh in on this "debate"
thanks
dw
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jake is used to "weighing" in on too many things lately that is why more than my opinions are "weighty".
Enough punning...
Ah yes... faith and works. I think that the book of James is best understood in today's English idiom to mean in english "belief" whenever you read "faith". Belief is about giving intellectual assent to certain ideas without reference to one's behaviour. That is what the demon's famously do... they believe there is one God, but that is not enough to save them.
This I think is closest to what James criticizes in chapter 2. No one, that I know, believes that simple intellectual assent to certain ideas is a sufficient condition for salvation. Just like membership in a certain group or performing of certain rituals are insufficient conditions for salvation as well.
As to whether or not one can have saving "faith" that issues in fruit but not necessarily in deeds.... I would point us to Galatians 5 where the attributes of the fruit of the Spirit are listed.
They are not "internal" emotional states of ecstasy but "external" behaviours that others can see and benefit from... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control. While serving poor people is not on that list and telling people about Christ is not on that list, I would have to say that knowing Christ truly has to make you more kind over time and in comparison to the "old man" you were, otherwise I think it is legitimate to challenge whether a person has just "belief" or real "faith".
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